Cash Flow Secrets from a PI Lawyer with Justin Chopin

Think cash flow for a personal injury firm is just about waiting for that one big settlement? Think again. 

In this clip from the Judicial Dollars and Cents podcast, host John Scott sits down with Justin Chopin to reveal the real "Cash Flow Secrets from a PI Lawyer." Justin shares how he transformed from a self-described "piss-poor bookkeeper" into the founder of a 30-person firm by changing his relationship with money.

Discover why he treats his firm like a growth startup, the danger of sucking profits out too early, and the one piece of advice about paying yourself that changed everything.

If you want to stop guessing where your money went and start predicting where it's going, you need to watch this. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Judicial Dollars and Cents, brought to you by Anders' virtual CFO services team from all across the United States. I'm John Scott, and in each episode, we'll shine a light on the financial side of the legal world, turning law firm numbers into impact-driven stories. From taxes and profitability to practice growth and leadership, we sit down with law firm innovators who are shaping the future of the profession. Let's dive in right here on Judicial Dollars and Cents. Welcome back to Judicial Dollars and Cents, where we break down the financial and operational realities behind running a successful law firm. I'm John Scott with Anders Virtual CFO Services. And today we have a great guest, Justin Chopin, founder of the Chopin Law Firm, a Louisiana-based personal injury firm built on accountability, transparency, and an unwavering focus on people, clients, and team alike. Justin, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Thanks, John. Thanks for having me. That's the best introduction I've ever had. Unwavering.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Unwavering. Unwavering.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

You know, I know that's great because I know we didn't write that. I was like, I was like, that's that complimentary. I was like, you wrote that. Hey, I appreciate that. I do. We are unwavering.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

I I like to start with people's origin stories, but I think because you approach your law firm like a business, I want to focus on your origin story. But then what was that aha moment where you realized, hey, I'm great at my craft, but this really is a business, and I want to grow and scale and treat it like a business?

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah. Uh well, so for me, it wasn't one aha moment. Um, it's been many moments of a little little small, like, hmm, um, hmm, I don't think I, you know what, I don't think I'm doing this right. Um, and then over time, um, these little small decisions, you know, have made a larger impact. And now I look back and you can say, like, oh, aha. You know, one of the ones when we talk about business is coming to terms with the fact that I'm just like a lawyer, like everybody else. I have a law degree, I have a bachelor's of arts in psychology. Um, I have never taken a business class. Um, I do not have an MBA. Um, where I went to college, they didn't have an MBA program where I went to school, they have one now. But um, and so what that means is because I started my firm from scratch, I wore every hat here. You know, there's nothing there's not one job here that I didn't have. I was the receptionist, I was the paralegal, I was the trial lawyer, I was the associate, I was the IT guy, uh, and I I was intake and I was the bookkeeper. And um, and I'm a very I'm a very piss poor bookkeeper. Um, you know, I can I can make sure I don't overdraw the account. I can do that. Uh I can record my checks. I'm much better at this than than my wife. Um, don't get me started on that. But but when it comes to bookkeeping on a seven-figure business, you know, in those days, um, I I don't know. I don't know what I don't even know what it means. I still don't know what it means. Or like, well, it's on the books. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? What books? I what I truly, when my CPA said, you know, he's like, well, we got to get a set of books for you. Like, I thought it was gonna be like an actual book. And I was like, well, where is it? Let's see it, you know. Um, you know, so so coming to terms with the fact that it's like, look, why would I know that? You know, I was a defense lawyer for a million years. We had an entire, you know, bookkeeping department at my defense firm, and I like knew one of their names, um, maybe, um, and very rarely would have any need or reason to interact with them. I simply did my work, uh, I kept my time, and then I submitted it, and then I don't know what happened after that. So, starting the law firm, you know, a lot of these things uh, you know, we weigh like what are you really good at? And what's a good use of your time? And what are you really bad at? And what is a bad use of your time? And uh I'm you know, I will tell you candidly, I was the bookkeeper here up until 2023. So for a long time, we started in 2015, so for eight years, I was uh, or seven years, I suppose, uh 21 of Bell, I was I was the bookkeeper. And I remember my law partner telling me, he's like, you know, Joseph, you're the most overpaid, underqualified bookkeeper in the history of business. And uh and and so when I did this little exercise as to like how much time in a day do I spend doing bookkeeping, how much time in a week, how much time in a month, um, and and then where like do I get any energy out of it? Do I do I enjoy doing it, things like that? I realized pretty quickly, like, oh, this is not for me. And so um, so that's not an aha moment, but it but it that exercise was, but it's just one of many, um, where I've had to learn over the years when when to kind of hire someone else to do it, either because I hate it, sucks, or I'm no good at it, or I am good at it. I am, you know, I am very good at intake, uh, and I do enjoy doing it, but it's really not the best use of my time. Uh, and just because you enjoy doing it and you're good at it, doesn't mean it's not still holding you back.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Right. And so many people hold on to those things because they are good at it, but they're limiting their ability to generate revenue because it's beneath their skill set. Yeah, you're good at intake, but you could get someone else to do the intake, and then you can handle more client matters. And you're you're also right that most attorneys don't have the background of accounting and finance to set up books and records. And I get it. When you're starting out and you're small, you want to hold on and keep up lit on costs, so you do your own bookkeeping. You probably made a few mistakes along the way, but either hiring or outsourcing that function can allow you to do higher level things. So tell me about the growth in your firm and how you view that. You started in 2018, 15. I started in 2000.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, so I started in 2015. It was me, a couple of cases in my in my home office, which was which was supposed to be a nursery. And um, you know, I just reinvested 100 cents on the dollar month over month, year over year, you know, reinvesting in myself, reinvesting in the law firm and the opportunity. And um now we have 30 employees. We have uh, you know, we have one main office we're looking this year to build satellites. Uh we have uh virtual assistants in the Philippines, we have a full intake team. Uh I'm not gonna call it a department yet. I feel like we get one more person and it's a department. Um, you know, and we have um we have five different teams of lawyers, you know, set up, they're set up in little teams where you have a partner, associate, and uh, and then they have paralegals and legal assistants. Uh, and so, you know, it's hard, it's hard to look at like when did you grow? Because we've had so much going on, you know, just naturally. We had we had COVID, uh, right, and then a year after COVID, we got hit with a massive hurricane, which changed the law firm in a lot of ways. Uh, and so I'm always like, wait, no, is that before COVID or after COVID? No, that was that was before COVID, that was after, you know, after Hurricane Ida. So uh, but I would say we've been on an upward trajectory from the start. You know, like you know, when I first started, I would look at money like this. I'd say, okay, what did I make this month? Okay, that's more than I would have made as a defense lawyer for this month. So we're okay. I'm not spending any of it, right? We're just we're just we're just investing over and over, you know, until I until I got to a spot where we uh we had enough money. Because that's the hard part about running a plaintiff's practice is um it's really heavy uh cash flow. Um you you're just I finance everything. Um and so you you know, that's why a lot of times, you know, younger lawyers uh they'll get a good case and they'll have to bring in someone to help them with it. And it's not always because they're like, oh, I don't know how to do it, it's because they can't finance it. Um or they're having to take out you know loan shark style lending to do it. And and so I never wanted to do that. We used to boast, you know, they're like, we're cash pay, everything, you know, we're we're self-financed, we we have no, we have a line of credit, we don't use it. Um and um and so, but but that's kind of um you know, I wrangled, but um, you know, that's kind of been the the the growth. I think probably you know, we we did a a 2x a couple of times. Uh and so it will be interesting to see what this year has in score. Um, we did a massive growth in 2023. I said for 2024, I just wanted to like chill a little bit on purpose. I thought you know people were getting fatigued with with change and growth. Uh, and then 2025, you know, was was sort of a big year again. Uh so I think this year, but but in a lot of ways, I thought 2025 was was sort of setting the stage for this year. Uh so knock on wood, I hope I'm right. Uh, but um it's it's kind of fun to just watch this kind of grow over time. Um, and and it's you know it's funny because I'm not the bookkeeper, I'm not the intake specialist, I'm not the paralegal or the or the receptionist, and I'm not you know the associate or or or anything else. And so a lot of times I'm just like, all right, well, I don't even know what am I what am I even doing here today? You know, I got a whole marketing team, uh and I just kind of come in and out as as necessary. And uh it's a little, it's still a little weird at the end of the day, you don't have that same sense of like how much should you get done today the way you did or the way I did for many years. It's it's more fluid, but it's it's fun, it's fun to be part of the process. And I'll say this about the growth. Uh at first, everybody, everybody in the firm was really uncomfortable about it. Um, a lot of grumbling, a lot of like, you know, it's too much change too fast. And um, and then we just did a year-end survey. Now we're like corporate as hell. So we did a year-end survey. Tell me what you liked, tell me what you didn't like, what are you most excited about? What do you, you know, all those sorts of things. And I'd say half the people all said the same thing. What are you most excited about? They're most excited to see what's next. What's next in the growth trajectory?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Um and that's so cool. I was like, wow, that is a marked shift. Um, in fact, almost everybody said that except for like one. That's fine. You're always gonna have one. But I mean, it was a marked shift from perspective. And so it seems like they're enjoying it as much as I am.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

That's great. It seems like you got the right people and the right people in the right seats on the bus, too. That's that's awesome. Hey, so in a PI firm, you know, we focus on profit-focused accounting, which means we look at financial and non-financial drivers to predict the future and forecast. And it's a little more difficult in a PI contingency environment, but it's certainly doable. Do you have a handle on forecasting over the next 12 weeks, six months, and a year based on your case, cases inventory?

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah, I've never been good at forecasting income. Um, it's just it's um because you really it's not reliable revenue. Um, and so it's just something I've always struggled with. And people say, well, you know, what's your anticipated forecast for this year? This year? Are you kidding me? I have no idea. Um, I know historically generally what we do. I know what it costs to run the place. That I've got down to a to a to a T. Um but forecasting what the revenue is, I still so I still kind of do some old-fashioned things when it comes to that. When uh when a lawyer settles a case, you know, you don't have to go ring a bell, but like we have a Teams channel called Settlement Reporting, just so I can keep an eye on like what's coming in, what's coming in, you know, um, making sure that you know somebody is settling something. I oftentimes we'll tell the guys, look, it costs the same amount of money to run this place, whether you're settling cases or not. Right. So one way or another, we're paying that money out the door. So you need to go settle some cases if you enjoy being a lawyer here. Otherwise, you know, um even a very healthy law firm firm can't support too many months, you know, of no revenue. Uh, and so um, but and when it comes to forecasting, um no, I I don't I don't feel confident in any of our uh abilities to forecast on our models. Um I know how many cases I have open, I know how many cases are in litigation, I know generally the lifeline of a case and how long it may take. Uh, but I also know some lawyers move cases a lot faster than others, you know. And so I got you know, I got a lawyer who who settle things on the quick, and I got a lawyer who's like case dragged on for years. Um, and so there's so many variables without any control groups that I've never really been able to wrap my hands around.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, and that really hasn't been our experience with PI firms, uh, especially if they have the right case management system and can assign a value to those cases. So now you have this inventory of cases. And based on type of case, you know, probably the life expectancy or the the duration, and you can set milestones as to where they are in that case. And we know that you know MVAs are gonna settle quicker. Sometimes they go to trial, but we're gonna get some cash right around a trial date set. And and we really kind of excel in that area of helping people forecast that cash position. But I love the fact that especially early on, you took the position of holding on to that cash and reinvesting in the business. And that that's really kind of foreign to a lot of attorneys because they get to year end and they look at the cash balance, they go, whoop, take it out. And then they spend two or three months paying off the line of credit in the next year, and it's it's a struggle.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah, I don't do that. Um, I don't do that, and and um that's the nature of being in a growth pattern, too. I think, you know, it's very difficult to um suck out the profits and be in a growth pattern at the same time. It's it's one or the other, in my opinion, unless you're insanely profitable. Uh you know, but uh, or you're doing all the work, you know, really, you know, if you're doing all the work, you can do that. Um right, if you're a solo and you're comfortable being a solo, um, then you'll have a better handle on receivables and your overhead will be lower. Uh, but we're an advertising firm. So, you know, we spend, uh I think this year were forecasted to be anywhere from three to four million in advertising. Uh, and so because of that, you know, there's there's we're a higher volume practice. Um, so it's very difficult if you suck the profits out, um and you're gonna have a hard time, you know, with with that growth. Um so even just this year, you know, we uh I know what I want to do this year in terms of traditional marketing. So I spent all of last year, you know, siphoning the funds out or the profit, you know, to make sure that this year is covered. Uh and so a lot of times I I kind of do that. I'll escrow for lack of a better term to make sure that uh that the firm is you know has a good foundation. Uh but yeah, I got some good advice early on from another lawyer. I had asked him, I said, you know, when do you pay yourself? And he said, uh, my daughter had just been born. And he said, on your daughter's first birthday, maybe look at the books and think, can I pay myself? Um he's like, don't, you know, don't do anything. And so it was, it was uh, I really took that to heart. That made sense to me. Um, that again would be there'd be no reason for me to know how to manage cash, you know, like that at a law firm. I got a little lucky in that three cases I had been holding on to for a long time um had finally hit the first summer of the law firm. Um and so that kind of jump started uh some of the stuff. And uh what I did very early on, which is a little bit different than what I just said I did, but we focused very much on debt. Um and so that's why I'm able to reinvest all the time because I I live with no debt. Uh and so for the first two or three years, uh, pretty much like all law loans, they had to get paid off. My wife's law loans, they had to get paid off. Um, you know, the house, the house isn't paid off, but it's very manageable. Um, but I have the same house note in a new house that I had when I had like a little bachelor house, um, you know, when I first started when I was young. So um uh we don't have credit card debt and my car is paid for, you know, and so I'm a big believer in um in chipping away of all that debt. Um and then, and now now when you're not making payments to you know the various finance companies, um now you have a really good sense of like, okay, what do I actually need? You know, um, not what do I want? Everybody wants to be rich, everybody does, you know. Uh, but what do I need? Um and and is that realistic? And can we be there, you know, on this? And so that's kind of how I did it. And um, that advice kind of came to me at the right time and took it to heart, and I've done it every single year. And I think that that's really, you know, if anyone was like, What's the secret? And I was like, that's the secret, um, is you gotta, you know, you have to treat yourself like an immigrant in a lot of ways. Um, starve yourself, reinvest uh so that the next generation, you know, has a has a better life. And so that's really what we're doing is uh we're reinvesting because I'm not so much worried about where I was at 40. I'm more worried about like where are we gonna be at 50? You know, where are we gonna be at 60? Um, you know, but where we're we're put we're laying all the foundation uh now.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So I love your approach to cash flow and and debt. And if my kids listen to this episode, they will hear me in in your words because there are good uses of debt, like a mortgage on your home, but credit card debt, if you can't pay it off at the end of the month, you didn't need to buy it. So I want to go back to the teams that you've set up where there's a partner and some associates and and intake people. What metrics do you look at? How do you judge the effectiveness of those teams or evaluate their performance?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

That to me, it's like either either you're meeting your revenue targets or you're not. Um everybody gets to participate in intake. Uh the cases are pretty evenly spread out. Um, we've got fresh cases coming in every day, we've got old cases you know matriculating out. Um, everybody has the same support. So, in that regard, everything's uniform, right? Everyone has the same resources and they have all the resources they need. You know, we have the more software than you could possibly imagine. We can track every metrics of the firm. Uh, we have awesome support staff, awesome paralegals, our intake is top-notch. Uh, we have a department you know for marketing solely focused on like what we can do better. I've got a uh director of operations where she and I will literally I spend all energy thinking like, what can I do to make this better than before? What process can I put in place? What tools do they need? You know, what where should we invest in AI or whatever it may be? Uh so these things are constant across all teams. Now the answer is can you deliver? Can you can you get a good result in all the cases? And uh so we're I'm very upfront on what it costs to be a lawyer, you know, to sit in a chair. You know, it's bare minimum. You need to be getting a half a million dollar in legal fees, and it's probably more than that, but you know, bare minimum. So um that means you've got to settle, you know, anywhere in our cases are usually um 40 to 40 percent, 35%, depending on the type of case it is, uh, as far as attorneys' fees. Uh so you say 37.5%, you can extrapolate that and you're the bare minimum. You need to be doing what, like 1.5 in business. Um it's just a you know, easy generic numbers. Um, and that's that's the that's that's it. You know, you're either making it or you're not. And so um I think there are always variables, but but I think most of it is constant. And um, we um, you know, we have uh I have one partner here who is a director of associate development, uh, and his job is to mentor uh the younger lawyers to get them to that point. So that, you know, and it could be anything, you know, he'll he'll give me a feedback every week and be like, all right, we met, you know, and uh this is what I'm seeing. You know, either, you know, he needs to do this more, he doesn't have enough cases, we need to spread this out more, or the stack, you know, and so it's it's all on profitability. That's all I all I want to hear about. Um, you know, on that. So uh that's how we measure it. Um we don't bill by the hour. Or only on contingency. So either you settled the case or you didn't, you know. Uh you got the whole year. You got the whole year. If the whole year you're in the red, and then on December 28th, you hand me a check for you know a million dollars. Well, buddy, you did great. Don't worry about it. You know, but it starts over on January 1.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Well, clearly we'd like that cash flow throughout the year, but okay. You redeemed yourself on the last day of the year. It is not ideal.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

It is the most stressful way uh to get paid. Uh typically that's not what happens. Um we're pretty steady throughout the year. Um, we have spikes and peaks and valleys. Like September, from a cash flow perspective, sucks. It's always been horrible. Every September, I don't know why. I'm miserable. Um, October is always great, probably the reason. Uh, you know, um, we find um October and November are generally pretty good. December is pretty run of the middle. That old kind of wives tale of like insurance companies want to clear out their books, and so December's a busy month. I don't know that that's necessarily true. I find um October is when insurance companies are really looking to be like, okay, what can we get off the books? Um, and so it's very rarely, you know, are we doing deals, you know, after Christmas. I mean, honestly, by mid-December, I think operations on our side as well as the insurance company side have kind of like really subsided. Um, but uh yeah, ideally we would want, you know, we would want a steady flow. Because as I say, the expenses are steady, you know. Nobody's nobody's saying like, well, just that you can pay the rent at the end of the year, you know, right? Rent rent's due on the first, whether you're making money or not.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

So you mentioned that you're an advertising firm. And I want to go down a couple paths. What type of advertising do you think is currently working the best? And what is your reaction? Morgan and Morgan has been in your area for much longer than it's been expanding elsewhere. But how does that impact what you do or does it?

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Um, so the first question, you know, we have we have billboards, we have TV traditional, um, we do, we have a heavy social media presence. Um, and then uh we have a uh our largest line item is our digital advertising budget. Um it's very difficult to say which works. Um I would say the digital probably per dollar per dollar works, dollar per dollar works the best. Um and partly because there's there's a direct attribution, um, right? So if you're spending money on digital ads, it's very easy to track whether it yielded a result or it didn't. Um but uh the truth, but what can happen with digital is if you become too dependent on it, uh then you're you're you're not very secure in your position. And new people can come into the market and they can edge you out. So Morgan Morgan is the best example of that. So he buys his you know, ad buy from like law.com and and or excuse me, injury.com, and uh I think he has another, and they they they're just buying on a national scale. I don't even know, I can't even really ascertain like what are they spending in my local market uh because of the way that they buy their spend. Um, but I I do know I can look at my overlap brain and say, all right, how often is injury.com impacting me and you know how often are they ahead of me, you know, and stuff like that. And so so if you if you're just a hundred percent digital, I think um I think you're in the danger zone. And and then you know the question is have you really do you really have a brand? Do you really have an identity as a business? Um, and and I'll give a great example. So we represented uh this family who's son was like had the dad's gun and was showing it to his friend, shoots the friend, friend survives, uh, but not you know, not for nothing. It was like dut shot, you know, in the back bedroom. And and so it was a suit against uh the parents of the minor, um, and and their homeowners had insurance to cover, you know, for this child's injuries. Great result, there's no question about it. Uh, we were able to, you know, put plenty of money in their pocket. Uh, they were very happy. We were happy to be able to do the work. We felt good about the case. Um, nobody, nobody's going to jail, right? I mean, like it's it was an accident. I think it was a big lesson for everyone, um, parents and children and the like on both sides. Um fast forward two years, and their house is damaged in a hurricane. That client hired another attorney to represent them in their hurricane claim. And that attorney referred the case to us, asking them to help, you know, asking us to help them out. And I saw the name come across as a referral. I was like, that's great. And I was like, wait a second, aren't these the guys that we've represented for that that gunshot? And that's one of many of the small aha moments of like, my God, you know the problem is they don't even know who we are. We we've spent all this energy and time, you know, uh working on the best result for our clients, and then our clients walk out the door, they don't even know who we are. They I'll see um people will leave a five-star review and they'll be like, oh, Mr. Chopin was great. And I was like, that's not even my name. Um, it still happens, you know. And so if you're not going to try and establish, if you're gonna advertise, I should say, because if you're not advertising, the rules of the game are slightly different. If you're gonna advertise, I think then you need to establish a brand, um, if for no other reason, so that when the next case comes, you know, they they'll they actually even know your name and they know who you are. I think this is going to be particularly important as we're moving into the future because what I saw is this major shift in the market during COVID. Um, and it wasn't um COVID didn't dictate this. COVID gave us the tools and the excuse to implement what people were already wanting to begin with, and that was less contact with their lawyer. They actually don't want to come down here. So before COVID, the deal was this everyone knows when a client would call and say, I want to meet with Mr. Chopin, my paralegal would tell them, 10 o'clock. That's the time to meet me. You just say 10 o'clock. And if I got a line of people out the door to meet me at 10 o'clock, awesome. Because I know I won't. I know I won't. I know by and large most of them won't show up. Um, then you know, that was the old, old way. And then we would sit down at this table where I'm sitting right here, and I would go through and talk to them about their case, and I'd get a retention agreement, and we would go through it together. They would sign it, I'd give them a copy, and then out the door they went, and I'd be like, all right, well, you know, we'll we'll be calling you in a couple of days, you know, making sure checking on you. Are you going to the doctor? Do we have all the information we need, etc., etc.? Then, you know, what about all those people who couldn't come to the office? Well, those people, those were a problem. You know, frequently, especially in the early days and the young days of the firm, me or one of the other lawyers, we would go out to them, right? So you see lots of lawyers say that. Don't, we won't, you don't have to worry about coming to us, we'll come to you, right? Because we know you can't get down here, right? Like you can, I was in a car accident, my car is total. Great, drive on down to the office. Right. So it's not so simple. Um, so then uh we would hire somebody because then after a while, I don't want to go to your house, you know, um, in like a really bad neighborhood at five or six o'clock. I got kids, you know, that I they need to have dinner, it's getting late. Um, and so we had this like this guy. I don't know where it found. I truly don't even know where we found this guy. But when someone would call, we'd be like, okay. They're like, well, can you come to me? And I was like, look, I can't come to you, but I got this guy. Uh you know, he'll come to you. You know, it's not like truly, if you say the word runner, it's it's a very you know derogatory, he's not running the cases. They're coming to us and we're saying, Hey, can you help us, you know, make this connection? You go drive to their neighborhood, give them all the paperwork, explain it all to them, have them sign it, then come give us a copy, and then we'll call them. Um, it was horrible, absolutely horrible. The guy was atrocious. Um, I had one client call me, like, and she says, Well, I like you, really don't like that guy. Uh, you shouldn't have that guy to go to anybody's house. That guy was awful. So I was like, Oh, okay. So, what COVID did was COVID gave us the reason to implement what was always available to us, and that was, you know, we can text you all the all the things that you need. Um, and and so now when someone calls, they say, Look, I've been injured, and they're like, Great, you know, sorry that that's happening, but we'd love to help you out. We will text you the link to our contract, you're gonna sign with your finger, you get a copy, I get a copy, boom, you go from intake to onboarding, you're gonna get onboarded, boom, you're assigned to an attorney, attorney's gonna take your case, and we're gonna go from here. Um, that was available in 2019. It was fine. You could have done that in 2019, you could have done it in 2018. Um, COVID gave us the excuse to implement that. And I say this about market I bring this up for marketing because I think it's really important. That means that someone could have been injured, hired us as their lawyer, had an awesome result, and has never seen our face. Has never met us face to face, has never come down here, has never shook our hand, has never heard me pronounce our name, right? So they think it's Chopin or something like that. And and and that's that's the future of the practice. And it's not because we're doing it, doesn't bother me at all. We've got plans, I've got three conference rooms about to build out a fourth conference room. Doesn't bother me at all. I'd love to have the clients come down. Um, it's what the market is. We're meeting the market where it is. Um, it's what the clients want. They don't want to come down here, they don't want to pay to park and come up here. It's a pain in the ass, right? And so, and I get that. Um, so if that's where we that's by the way, just where we are. That's not where the market's headed, that's where the market is. Where are we gonna be in five years? Right. You know, I think so. Frequently I will I've been saying to these guys lately, I said, look, the last time, our last opportunity is when they come to pick up a check, we'll give them a t-shirt, you know, a little a little side man hug kind of thing, you know, tell them thank you, and then off they go and they're happy. I think that's gone. I my prediction is in the next three to five years, those are just gonna be contactless payments and just gonna get wired into their account. And then the only ones that are gonna actually come in are the ones, you know, for smaller settlements, maybe that are like, okay, I want my settlement check and I'm gonna go cash it. Uh, but that's not the norm. And so if you're not gonna have any client contact at all, you know, face to face, then you're gonna have to do more. And so I think in addition to you know, just taking care of your clients, staying in touch with them, reassuring them through the process, you know, it's gonna the other half of that is marketing. You're gonna have to market yourself to your own clients. Um, and that's the that's the risk of just being a digital-only practice.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Well, we things are gonna change so rapidly, especially with AI. And you're right, the pandemic, as painful as it was, took about five years of online and remote work and compressed it into 18 months. And we got good at it. You know, I I'm an old-fashioned guy. I like to walk down the hall and talk to a colleague. Now now you hop on a teams teams meeting. It's it's but but what it has done, at least for the accounting profession, is if we need talent in a certain area, a tax manager, an audit partner, they don't have to be here, they can be anywhere in the world and do that work. And and it probably works for you too. It gives you a little more freedom. You don't always have to be in Louisiana, you can work remotely, which is the the the ugly side of this because you're always on, and that's not a good thing. But we'll adjust and get there.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Yeah, I mean, look, that being always on is no good. Uh that is something we did ourselves um with the advent of the smartphone. I mean, I had the benefit of practicing law before that, and so you know it would wait until you get to the office. You know, we didn't even have a laptop. If you wanted a laptop, you had to like check one out for travel. So you really, when you left the office, you left the office. Now you might have been at the office longer. Um, you know, right? I remember as a young lawyer, I was like six o'clock at night, and I was like, Well, I'm gonna go. And my boss was like, Where? I was like, Well, I'm gonna go home. He's like, Why? I was like, Because it's six o'clock at night. He's like, Okay. I was like, I'm leaving because this sucks I want to go home. Okay. Um, I don't know what else you want me to say. So um, but we did that, we did that to ourselves. But you know, a lot of this when we talk about COVID and the technology changes, I took my first deposition just like this, like you and I are in 2011. That was almost 10 years before Zoom, anyone ever even heard of Zoom. So that's what this technology is was really not that new. You know, if you had now to be fair, we had some pretty sophisticated A B equipment, but I had to depose some soybean farmers out in Missouri. And my boss said, Well, I'm not paying to fly you out to Missouri. We just got this really expensive setup. Um, and so I took my first deposition like that. You know, not my first deposition, excuse me, but I took I took the deposition that way, and and that was the first time I had ever done it that way. I'll say it like that. So then, you know, that's why I said when COVID came, I was like, guys, this none of this is new, right? It just forced us into this role. I agree with you, like so we could hire people nationwide. Um, I can't hire the lawyers necessarily that way, but certainly staff, certainly intake. Uh, we have three, you know, virtual assistants in the Philippines that I think are phenomenal. Two of them are lawyers. Um, they're not practicing law for us, they're one of them's doing entirely back-of-house stuff, you know. And so, and then the other one is is operating as a full-time paralegal for one of our one of two of our attorneys, and she's absolutely phenomenal. And she works our schedule and our time zone, and um, and we really rely on her. And yeah, I mean, this when we have a meeting, you know, she's there on Teams. And uh that's that's the difference, though. 10 years ago, that was not that was not only only major companies would have had that. You know, you would have to be uh a massive company to be able to have uh remote workers. Uh and so I talked to a lawyer recently. Uh, she said, you know, that she likes to hire her intake team, um, you know, in like the mountain time zone, because it it kind of bridges better. Um, you know, and they have you know the accents right. There's like a it's like there's no accent. Um, I think that's a that's an interesting take. My people are all here. We're still in a building mode in my mind, and so uh we're not we're not too spread out. I like you, I like to walk down the hallway, and um, you know, we don't really so we we temper all that with saying, well, I don't really have a work from home policy. We I like everybody to be here and collaborate and learn, but we can service our clients anywhere, anywhere we want.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Hey, this has been a great conversation, but we are gonna have to wrap things up. I want to ask you a question. If the next time I get back to your area of the world, all right, I'd like a restaurant recommendation that would not be something a tourist would typically go to, but would have really great food.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Okay, sure. Well, so New Orleans, we got all the restaurants. Everyone's heard of them. You know, some of ours uh you you know about Commanders or people know about Arno's. Uh, but I think uh if you want really phenomenal food that locals like to go to, uh I have two restaurants by Donald Link. One is Herb Saint and one is Pesh. I think uh they're totally different vibes, as the kids like to say. Uh Herb Saint's your white linen tablecloth kind of place, and Pesh is more like wood tables. Both restaurants are my absolute favorite in New Orleans. I've never had a bad meal, either one of them. Uh when I go to Herb Saint, I will get the special fish of the day, even whatever it is, even when they describe it, if I'm like, man, that sounds gross, I'll have that. You know, I'm like, I'm hearing it, I'm like, God, I hate all that stuff. And I'm like, I'll take it because I know it's gonna be great. I know it's gonna be great. And then, and then there's one other, this one's really off the radar. Um, and it's called Saint Germain. And it's in like a very progressive sort of neighborhood. It's uh our St. Claude, and uh where it's uh like kind of, I wouldn't say it's up and coming, it's a very old neighborhood, but it's it's got some revitalization. And that's one of those, I don't know what you would call that, like uh you don't like there's no menu, right? So it's like a prefix tasting menu, and you just you're paying like a ticket more. So then like you know, and uh I think that if someone had asked me like what's the best meal you've ever had that you can remember in New Orleans, I would say Saint Germain.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

That's awesome. Thank you. Hey, and if folks want to get a hold of you, what's your website?

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yeah, so we well, we quartered the market on Chopin. So if you want to get a hold of us, it's just showPan.com. Um, you know, no other famous person's ever been named Chopin. And uh yeah, you can email me, Justin, at showpan.com, uh, check us out online. You can call us at 504-500-8000. Uh, happy to answer any questions anybody had.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Well, thank you again, Justin. And thank you all for listening. If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe, like, and share it with any other firm owner that you think could benefit from this conversation. Until next time, this is John Scott with Anders Virtual CFO Services and your host of Judicial Dollars and Cents. Thank you. Thanks, John. Thanks for joining us on Judicial Dollars and Cents presented by Anders Virtual CFO Services. If you found value in today's conversation, be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. To learn more about how Anders helps law firms strengthen their financial foundations and drive growth, visit AndersCPA.com. Until next time, keep making smart decisions that make perfect sense.